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Can you tell me more about these please?

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Can you tell me more about these please?

Post  gibbo156 on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 08:55



I bought four of these from Sweet Knowle Aquatics.
He told me that they are tank bred from a dealer in Singapore and that they probably have one wild parent.
The colour is much stronger than the pictures show and gets better all of the time.
The one in the pictures is about 50p body size the other three are 20p body size.

I bought them for , what i think, is the amazing fin length for a fish so small, the one in the pictures is more than four inches from the top of the fin to the bottom of the dangly bits.

I must stress they are a much darker colour than the pictures show.

They are described as Zebra Angels.
I have owned them for less than two weeks and they are showing noticeable growth.

They are in a 6'x2'x2' community tank containing only South American species.
The water parameters are pH 6.75 - ph 6.45 depending on how long the CO2 has been on.
TDS is 220 but i am working on reducing this slowly, i am aiming for 150 - 200 but would welcome advice.
Carbonate hardness is KH 2 drops
Temperature is 27.5 c


They feed well on a variety of frozen foods, live food occassionally and topped up with JBL Nova tabs when they demand even more.
They happily take defrosted bloodworm from tweezers when it is offered and will nudge the worm feeder lookng for food if they detect me around.

I an new to Angels, although not to fish keeping, so will welcome any advice, but i also would like to know more about what they are.
I know Pterophylum Scalare, but you people seem to know a lot more about the genetics than that.
I recognise that you can't tell a lot from a bad photograph.

I do not understand the genetic terms that i have read in this forum but i used to breed birds so i am hoping to understand the concepts soon.

I bought these after i chickened out of getting wild caught Peruvian Angels because i just don't know enough.

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Re: Can you tell me more about these please?

Post  Pterophyllum on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 10:57

Hi Gibbo,
welcome to the forum,
They certainly look to be good healthy fish.
As angelfish breeders/keepers, we are very fortunate that back in the 1980's Dr Joanne Norton carried out considerable research into the genetics of the different varieties available then. We are even more fortunate that the articles she first published in an American fishkeeping magazine are available to us on line here... Dr Norton's Articles. There have been a couple of new mutations identified since then, notably albino and philippine blue, but otherwise, if you understand the concepts of dominant, incomplete dominant, recessive and allele, then Dr Norton's articles are the place to start.

With regard to your fish
The second one may be a zebra lace veil, whilst the first could be the same, but I think it's what Dr Norton called a clown veil, and what these days is more commonly refered to as a dark clown veil, or possibly a black lace ghost veil. To explain the genetics behind this...

Compared to a normal silver (ie wildtype) angel, your fish has a grey/black cast to the body, this results from it having one copy of a gene called "Dark", a fish that is homozygous for dark is a very dark fish known as a DD black. There is another mutation which is an allele of dark called (new) gold, a fish that has a dark and a new gold gene (D/g) is almost as dark as a DD black, these are usually refered to as "hybrid" blacks. Whilst a fish with one dark and one wild type gene is known as a black lace, or simply lace, which is what your fish appear to be.

Veiltail is a mutation which causes the fish to develop longer fins, not just tails, it's an incomplete dominant, fish which are homozygous for the gene are known as super veils, many people consider super veils are too encumbered by their fins, so many prefer to mate veils to standards rather than mating veil to veil.

Normal wildtype angels have 4 vertical black bands, 1 through the eye, one at the root of the tail, and two body bands, zebras is a dominant mutation which produces extra body bands (one between the two body bands, and one between the tail band and the first body band), your second fish appears to have just the normal body bands, whilst the first appears to have broken bands which can result from the light regime it's reared under (see Norton's articles). There is another mutation known as stripeless which is an allele of zebra, in a fish with one zebra and one stripeless gene the bands break up into random blotches on the body, such a fish is called a clown. A fish with 2 stripeless genes is called a blushing angel, whilst a heterozygous fish with a wildtype gene is called a ghost, ghosts often have little or no sign of body banding, but usually retain the eye stripe and sometimes the tail stripe. The tell tale difference is in the dorsal striations (horizontal stripes in the dorsal fin) which your fish haven't fully developed yet.
In normal and ghost angelfish these are parallel, whilst in fish with a zebra gene, there are more, closer together and can break down into a chaotic network, or even vertical stripes.
This fish is a clown, but his body markings had faded due to stress as he had only just been moved when the photo was taken


Take a look at the female in this thread, Not Pinoys, I think she is very similar to how yours may turn out.

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Thankyou

Post  gibbo156 on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 12:46

Thankyou for an excellent reply. That will keep me reading for a while!
Only one small point, both pictures are of the same fish, he/she has much darker black markings now, but does seem to get a bronze sheen when feeding but this may just be a trick of the light.

Do Angels have sex linked genes ? Genes that are passed from Father to daughter but not son, or Mother to son but not daughter, and do they sometimes carry genes that don't show until the next generation?

I'm probably not ( sound like famous last words ) going to get into seriously breeding Angels but it is interesting. I have just started a dwarf cichlid breeding project and i don't think i can do both,,,,,, but you never know.

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Re: Can you tell me more about these please?

Post  Ghipsi on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 13:28

Hi Gibbo, they are stunning! Well done on getting them, the finnage is lovely! Very Happy
When it comes to genetics we are all learning from Rob (Pterophyllum) he sure knows his stuff!
Keep us updated on how they are growing, Lisa

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Re: Can you tell me more about these please?

Post  Pterophyllum on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 13:45

sometimes the only sure way to know what you have is to look at the offspring, or even their offspring, the banding on one side is definitely incomplete, as to why, genetics, or enviroment (ie lighting when juvenile) is hard to be certain.
As to sexed linked genes, I believe sex is determined on the usual X, Y basis; there are therefore almost certainly sex linked genes, but none have so far been identified.

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Beginning to learn

Post  gibbo156 on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 14:31

Thanks to the answers i am getting from you i was able to look with a bit more understanding.
Two of the smaller angels have four very clear and pronounced body stripes.
The other two only have two body stripes and, as you have noted, these stripes are not complete.
The fish in my pictures has body stripes that are very broken, the rear body stripe is hardly a stripe at all.
At least both sides are the same now that he/she has grown since the pictures were taken.

I haven't found anything else of significance yet, but as i learn more my observation may improve.

Although the fin length continues to be their, in my opinion, best feature i am not inclined to think that they are veiled. I am not sure if the pointedness of the dorsal fin is significant, i notice that with the tank bred angels shown in the pictures here and elsewhere the dorsal fin is very rounded at the top.

Forgive me if i occasionally notice the wrong thing, i am speaking from a position of near total ignorance.

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Re: Can you tell me more about these please?

Post  gibbo156 on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 14:38

Ghipsi wrote: Well done on getting them

Thanks Lisa, but it was just that i couldn't resist them. I have never been this impressed with a juvenile angel before, there is just something about them. Admittedly i am no judge, but they make my South American community look great and they make me smile, that's good for starters.

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Re: Can you tell me more about these please?

Post  Pterophyllum on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 16:32

i am not inclined to think that they are veiled.
You do get natural variation in fin/tail length which is due to factors other than the veiltail gene. The fish I use for my avitar is a good example of a fish with surprisingly long fins despite not being a veiltail, but I'm very confident that yours are. That said, one of the pleasures of angelfish is watching how they develop over time, if I'm right you'll see all the fins get gradually longer in proportion to the fish as they age.
It's worth pointing out that with some veiltails the length of the whole tail is extended, whilst in others the extra growth is confined more to the edges and the tail extensions (the single longer ray trailling from the top and bottom of the fin). Such veiltails are sometimes refered to as "lyretail", you sometimes see fish with an extension to the middle of the tail as well, this is refered to as a "trident tail", others have quite a lot of extensions to a roughly even length tail, this is refered to as a "comb tail" . Others are what might be described as "classic veils" with increased tail length accross the whole width of the tail. There may be genetic and/or enviromental factors at play here, but I've certainly had fish that started out as lyres, developed into tridents and finished off as combs,

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Re: Can you tell me more about these please?

Post  gibbo156 on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 18:16

Pterophyllum wrote:
i am not inclined to think that they are veiled.
You do get natural variation in fin/tail length which is due to factors other than the veiltail gene. The fish I use for my avitar is a good example of a fish with surprisingly long fins despite not being a veiltail, but I'm very confident that yours are. .......

Since my last post i have nipped around to the shop to view the unsold tankmates. There are some in there that i definitely would describe as veiltail.

Armed with the little bit of knowledge , dangerous i know, that i gained from you this afternoon i took a closer look at all of them. There are quite a few variations, some with four body stripes and some with two, some with veiltails and some not, some with long pointed dorsal fins some rounded, and every combination of all of them. I suppose this would be an expected result of a batch of fry from two parents of mixed genealogy.

The best thing that i observed is that the ones i purchased ten days ago have grown significantly under my care, they are much larger and more clearly marked than all of the remaining tankmates, even allowing for the fact that i picked the four that were in my opinion the best.

Thanks again for your help, i will be reading for quite some time.

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Re: Can you tell me more about these please?

Post  endlessendlers on Thu 08 Mar 2012, 20:25

The fish pictured looks like a veil to me also. Look at the length of the ventrals in proportion to the body size too. Standards wouldn't normally have ventrals that long imo. Striking looking fish you have there.
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