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Not Pinoys!

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Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 12:31

This pair won't produce any pinoys as the mother doesn't have a pb gene, but all the youngsters will be heterozygous for it.
This is Dad



I believe he's a blue chocolate, but he might just be a blue smokey, I'll soon know when the babies grow. I suspect he has a stripeless gene, again, hopefully, the babies will reveal all!

I'm also unsure of the female...



Her mother was a "clown marble veil" (M/+ - S/Z - V/+) whilst her father was a zebra lace.
My guess is that she's D/+ - S/Z - V/+, but she might be D/M - S/Z - V/+

These will be the first veiltails that I've produced which definitely have a pb gene although I've got quite a few with a 50:50 chance.

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Ghipsi on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 13:54

The youngsters will be stunning, what a combination of 2 stunning adults!!! Mum looks rather cheeky too Laughing

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 14:32

Mum looks rather cheeky too

I don't know about cheeky, but for a long time I mistook her for a male, due to her belidgerent nature!

Here's a photo taken of her 18 months ago


Notice the small hole in her anal fin, just where it meets the body, about half way along?
It's not obvious in the recent photos, but it's still there, no larger, no smaller, a little bigger than a pin head. I'm hoping it's the result of damage, rather than a genetic trait. As a concequence her name is Polo - the fish with a hole in it Smile

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Ghipsi on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 14:39

As a concequence her name is Polo - the fish with a hole in it

lol! , wow, you are a top Angelfish breeder, you breed holy Angels lol!

Can see why you had trouble sexing her, I am having the same trouble sexing 2 large camera shy Pinoys Neutral

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 14:50

Can see why you had trouble sexing her, I am having the same trouble sexing 2 large camera shy Pinoys
Some do like to keep you guessing!

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  endlessendlers on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 16:21

Pterophyllum wrote:
Can see why you had trouble sexing her, I am having the same trouble sexing 2 large camera shy Pinoys
Some do like to keep you guessing!

I think the unsexed marble in your other thread has a head shape similar to the female you are talking about here. I also think your female is similar to my zebra lace, but wonder if yours has a stripless.gene because of the broken stripes.

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 16:50

but wonder if yours has a stripless.gene because of the broken stripes.
I'm pretty confident that she's S/Z, I'm just not sure if she's inherrited a marble gene from her mother, I hope so, but suspect not.

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  baldyman on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 21:41

That female is stunning Rob
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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 21:43

That female is stunning Rob
Thank you - I get the impression you like veiltails.

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  baldyman on Wed 07 Mar 2012, 21:52

Yes i like veils, but i like all angel fish shapes and colours, i think with that one its the general shape and the way the dark sholder and top blend through the "clown" broken stripes to the lighter underbelly. It just LOOKS right , if you know what i mean.
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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 25 Mar 2012, 23:14

The youngsters have been free swimming for 1 month and a day, so time for some photos.
No sign of marbles so the female is D/+ - S/Z - V/+ as suspected.

But some of the babies are blushing, so the male, as hoped, does have a stripeless gene.



This means I'll have clowns (S/Z), Zebras (Z/+), Ghosts (S/+) and blushers (S/S) in the mix.

The next question is about the smokey gene, is the male a chocolate (Sm/Sm) or a smokey (Sm/+)?
As some may know, the smokey pattern usually starts to develop around about 4 weeks old, so the jury is still out, none the less although there are some which show clear signs of smokey


There are others which apparently have no intention of losing their stripes...


If they've still got stripes in a week or so, I'll be able to conclude that Dad's a smokey and not a chocolate.

The veiltails are already clearly destinguishable from their standard finned siblings


There is also considerable size variation between them, in part I suspect because they could probably do with bigger quarters!


Finally, some people talk about the "blue headlight" as being a good indicator of a youngster that's homozygous for pb. Well as previously noted, these are all heterozygous for pb, yet some have very blue heads...




My plan is to use these to produce some pinoy paraiba veils, but I'm already far from looking forward to having to sort the paraibas from their pb het. siblings!


Last edited by Pterophyllum on Sun 25 Mar 2012, 23:54; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 25 Mar 2012, 23:29

That's annoying, I usually resize my pictures to 1200 pixels wide, by 1800 tall, before uploading them to photobucket. For these photos, I went with 1200 wide, but in some cases only 800 high, in other cases 1200 high, yet, on my monitor at least, the squatter ones are getting chopped on the right hand edge. I'll see what I can do to resize them, in the mean time some of them will be unavailable for a bit, so keep watching this space!

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 25 Mar 2012, 23:57

OK, that seems to have sorted it!

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  endlessendlers on Mon 26 Mar 2012, 07:12

The second pic looks like a smokey in the making Rob. It will be interesting to see if the stripes disappear, so i'll keep watching this topic. With regards to the blue dot, I have noticed that nearly all of my fry from every spawn have it regardless of whether they are het or hom pb.
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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Ghipsi on Mon 26 Mar 2012, 08:26

Lovely, interesting to see blue on the heads of some, is it just me or is pb het expressing more in fish now then a few years ago?
I know what you mean by 'headlights' I have an image of youngsters with the headlights clearly showing on the pb/pb

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Mon 26 Mar 2012, 11:26

The second pic looks like a smokey in the making Rob.
I'm sure it is, and you can see the smokey pattern in the fish in the fourth photo, yet the babies in photo 3 show no sign of it, that's why I'm beginning to think the male is only smokey and not a chocolate.

interesting to see blue on the heads of some, I know what you mean by 'headlights' ....I have an image of youngsters with the headlights clearly showing on the pb/pb

I'm sure these are only heterozygous for pb, so it's worth noting that not all blue on the head is indicitive of a homozygous fish, in some varieties the difference is very clear, but in others less so. Next time I get a batch of pinoys of similar age (hopefully not too far away) I'll try and take similar shots at a similar stage of development, to give a direct comparison. In the mean time is there any chance you could post your image(s)? What variety do you have photos of? I'm sure I've got some of plats & blues at about this age, but not as good detail as these photos (I didn't have my macro lens back then)

is it just me or is pb het expressing more in fish now then a few years ago?
I suspect/hope that because of the nature of the blue colour (structural rather than pigmement) it should be more variable in it's expression than some varieties, which in turn should make it more susceptible to improvement through careful selection and breeding.....

Take this male as an example, his colour is much darker and more intense than many smokey blues I've had up to now. compare him with this one for example...


I'm pretty certain that the key difference is that this fish is +/g whilst judging from the lack of any really dark babies in this batch, their father doesn't carry a gold gene.

His sister is the mother of my blue marbles :-

Like her brother she has darker, more intense colouration than any of my previous smokey blues, and again, judging from her babies, I don't think she carries a gold gene either.

I'm hoping to test this theory further over the next few months..

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 08 Apr 2012, 16:59

Really pleased with the progress of this batch, although there is considerable size variation, and the blushing individuals continue to be very camera shy. I'm now pretty certain that Dad is a chocolate, as with the exception of a couple of very small runty individuals, all seem to be showing some degree of smokey pattern.




considering these are only het. for pb, I'm suprised just how blue some of the smokeys look...



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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Ghipsi on Sun 08 Apr 2012, 19:05

Very nice youngsters, lots of very interesting colours to keep an eye on & yes the pb hets are showing blue very nicely Very Happy
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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 08 Apr 2012, 23:01

I wonder if the blue will become more or less noticeable as they grow?
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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Fri 25 May 2012, 15:59

Just some updated photos of these

Blushing Smokey Veil


Leopard Veil


Black Lace Leopard Veils




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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Fri 01 Jun 2012, 23:44

A couple more




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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  endlessendlers on Sat 02 Jun 2012, 00:14

That first fish is gorgeous. What would you call the phenotype? Smokey blushing lace?
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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Sat 02 Jun 2012, 01:03

That first fish is gorgeous. What would you call the phenotype? Smokey blushing lace?
I'm glad you asked me that!

Before the advent of Philippine blue blushing black lace was called "blue", so if I wanted to cause confusion I could call it a smokey blue! Also black blushing is often refered to as velvet, so I could call it a smokey velvet lace. But I think Blushing Smokey black lace would be my name of choice.

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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  uk bulldog on Sat 02 Jun 2012, 23:20

The leopard veil is very nice Rob i realy like the fins on that one
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Re: Not Pinoys!

Post  Pterophyllum on Fri 08 Jun 2012, 23:38

That first fish is gorgeous.
Also in veiltail.....


and two others with standard fins


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Re: Not Pinoys!

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