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Pinoy Pair

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Pinoy Pair

Post  Deans_Angels on Sun 23 Aug 2015, 19:26

With reference to the parents of the pinoys that I now have:

Dad was a Chocolate Ghost Pinoy Veil and mum a Blue Clown, the cross was:

(D/+ - S/+ - Sm/Sm - V/+ - pb/pb) x (+/+ - Z/S - pb/pb)

All the offspring will carry a double dose of the pb allele (because both parents are double dosed for pb).
All the offspring will carry a single dose of the Sm allele, that is, they will be 'smokies' (because offspring inherits one of dads Sm alleles and mum has no smokey at all to give, so all offspring: Sm/+).

50% of the offspring will be Pinoys, that is, they carry the 'D' dark allele in combination with the double dose pb).
Half of the above (25%) will be Veil Pinoys, which leaves only one locus to solve:

Solving the 'Zebra / Stripeless' locus:
Ghost x Clown or (S/+) x (Z/S), if you prefer, should result in a further genetic division of:

25% Ghost (S/+)
25% Blushing (S/S)
25% Zebra (Z/+)
25% Clown (Z/S)

Now.. these four above would all seem to fall under the same Phenotype as 'Pinoy Smokey Veils'.

Normally a dark blushing fish (D/+ - S/S) is known as a Turquoise or Turquoise Blushing, but as I understand, these would not have fancy lace patterns in the fins (which both have (though I would say only partially)) so that rules that out.

So, unless the single dose of D, Sm, V or double dose of pb/pb is able to hide Zebra or Clown, my conclusion is that:
The Pinoys must be both genetically: D/+ - S/+ - Sm/+ - V/+ - pb/pb

Just to complicate things, the female looks to be 'St', and I can only assume this came from mums Blue Clown side? So..
One Pinoy must be genetically: D/+ - S/+ - Sm/+ - St/+ - V/+ - pb/pb

Any thoughts on the accuracy of this?

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Re: Pinoy Pair

Post  Pterophyllum on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 01:37

Hi Dean,
First off you've almost right on the parents, except that the father is the carrier of the streaked gene he's D/+ - S/+ - Sm/Sm - V/+ - St/+ - pb/pb
whilst the female is S/Z - +/p - +/a - pb/pb *

*two little provisos here :-
firstly I'm 99% certain that she comes from the batch I think she does, but there's just a slight possibility that I've managed to muddle her up Embarassed
secondly, although I don't think she does, there's the possibility that she's carrying a gold gene.

This is their mother :-


and this their father :-


Now.. these four above would all seem to fall under the same Phenotype as 'Pinoy Smokey Veils'.
Technically the combination Z/+ - Sm/+ is a leopard, although most people seem to distinguish between smokey leopards, and chocolate leopards (Z/+ - Sm/Sm)
whilst if it has a stripeless gene e.g. Z/S - Sm/+, it's a leopard ghost.

Personally I'm not entirely comfortable with the name leopard, since the name was originally used to describe fish raised in continuous light, but for the moment I can't think of anything better.  Personally I feel that clown leopard would be an equally appropriate name for a Z/S - Sm/+ fish, but the convention, such as it is**, is that they're leopard ghosts.

** It's not easy to tell them apart visually, in fact I'd go as far as to say it's not possible to reliably tell leopard ghosts and leopards apart visually, and therefore the term leopard ghost is generally only used in breeding discussions such as this.

Certainly one, & I'm fairly certain both of the pinoys you got from Blither were leopards, time for some photos :-

Once you get your eye in, the distinction is easy to spot, and yet, getting your eye in isn't easy. To be honest, whilst there are some fish I can call at a second's glance, there are some that make you um & err, and the situations is further complicated by the "pseudo-zebra" pattern seen in some wild populations and their domestic decedents. Time for some photos :-

One of the problems, is that the zebra dorsal pattern, whilst distinctive, isn't particularly consistent, it varies between individuals, and within the same individual over time.

A silver clown
 

All of these are blue smokey leopards, some may well be ghosts too :-




and for comparison a blue smokey


With zebras people talk about "whorls" and "rosettes", but for me, the key point is the number & spacing of the striations. Zebras have more, in some cases those lines become broken, so broken they form dots, or merge to form vertical rather than horizontal lines, but the common factor is that they're closer together.
Ah-ha I hear you cry, look at the striations on the father in the second photo, and I'd have to agree with you, except that I'm confident that neither of his parents had a zebra gene.
All I can say is this he's one of those cases that makes me um & err.

But if we look at the photo of your fish that you posted in the "place your bets" thread:-



The breaking of the dorsal striations into dots & vertical stripes is clear
I do think that the dark gene has an influence on the striations, empasising the zebra pattern
This veiltail smokey leopard lace (no pb genes) shows a fairly typical pattern,

she's the great grand mother of your fish  Smile


Last edited by Pterophyllum on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 01:41; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missing photo!)

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Re: Pinoy Pair

Post  endlessendlers on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 06:12

Omg Rob you've given me a headache!! I'd forgotten how complicated angelfish genetics are. I'm going to have to do alot of reading to get a grip on it again.

All beautiful fish pictured btw.
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Re: Pinoy Pair

Post  Deans_Angels on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 15:27

Phew! Thanks Rob, that's better than tracing the family tree So, to correct my mistakes:

Dad: D/+ - S/+ - Sm/Sm - St/+ - V/+ - pb/pb
Mum: +/+ - Z/S - a/+ - p/+ - pb/pb

I think it's possible to express the 1% probability of mum having a single gold allele as follows:

Mum: g(0.01)/+ - Z/S - a/+ - p/+ - pb/pb

That stated, unless the 1% is based on some past event, looking at things today, she is either het g or she isn't, hence:
(half chance)

Mum: g(0.5)/+ - Z/S - a/+ - p/+ - pb/pb

But putting the Gold to one side and looking at the offspring batch as a whole, every fish has:

0.5 chance of carrying a single albino allele.
0.5 chance of carrying a single pearlscale allele.
0.25 chance of carrying a single albino allele & a single pearlscale allele. (0.5 x 0.5)
0.25 chance of carrying no albino and no pearlscale alleles. (0.5 x 0.5)

So there's still a bit of potential for albino or pearlscale (less so for both) to emerge from a sibling cross, which I intend.

Now, jumping back to the gold, and my question:
If mum is het for gold (g/+) and not (+/+) then rather than obtaining 50% +/+ and 50% D/+, potentially you could have obtained 25% +/+, 25% g/+, 25% D/+ and 25% D/g. With that possibility in mind is it clear (to you) that these Pinoys are both D/+ and not D/g? if not (and I don't care either way) they could be:

i) pair of D/+'s
ii) pair of D/g's or
iii) both D/+ x D/g.

I hope you view this as general interest and not some extended after sales service.
I do of course know that to cross the female with a male g/g would tell me:
(50% Silvers = D/+ female) whereas (50% Golds = D/g female)

Hi to great grandmother, if she's still around! I bet she talks about the olden days as though it was 2012, probably was!

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Re: Pinoy Pair

Post  Pterophyllum on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 17:23

Hi Dean,
The Mother's father definitely had a gold gene. In my experience, +/g - pb/pb tend to be more pastel blue where +/+ - pb/pb tend to be a darker blue with stronger black. I selected those which conformed to the latter condition as potential breeders, but there is always the possibility that a +/g individual slipped through.

D/g fish tend to be darker than D/+ individuals, there was less variability in the intensity of colour of the offspring than I would have expected were the female +/g. So if you want a purely mathematical probability of her being +/g it's 50%, on the basis of the points noted I'd say I'm 95% confident she doesn't have a gold gene.

Looking at the offspring, if you're after pearlscale, personally I really don't like it, look at them at about 45 degrees from head on with a light shining at the side, het. pearlscales have slightly deformed scales, this is the father of the mother :-



I hope you view this as general interest and not some extended after sales service.
Yes, I enjoy discussing this sort of thing without the other person's eyes glazing over.


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Re: Pinoy Pair

Post  Deans_Angels on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 21:22

Pterophyllum wrote:...if you're after pearlscale...

I wouldn't say I was actively pursuing pearlscale, but thrown into the mix of other things, it offers something different, even in het form it adds some kind of depth to the texture. Some people love nothing better than a g/g - p/p - V/+ because they're delicate and very bling at the same time.

Anyway...

With mum, aren't the golden flecks just above where the ventrals meet the body, indicative of gold?
I think I read that somewhere, but I don't know where so I'm a bit unsure, it might have been in relation to the identification of Koi but could still apply.


Time will tell.

Shipping Fish:
Also I would like to know if you're shipping 'angels only' or whether it's a shop-wide venture. I only ask because I would like to know how I could select and order such, will it be through an extension of your existing website as an item/s to purchase with a picture or video, ebay? or will it be more what people ask you for? From my desk, all i know is that you probably have a lot of young wild angels.

Not sure what I'd like next, I'd love to see a Peruvian (elongated) shaped Platinum Very Happy

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Re: Pinoy Pair

Post  Pterophyllum on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 23:36

With mum, aren't the golden flecks just above where the ventrals meet the body, indicative of gold?
I've never heard that suggested before, and I very much doubt it, but I'm always happy to be proved wrong.

Shipping Fish:
Also I would like to know if you're shipping 'angels only' or whether it's a shop-wide venture. I only ask because I would like to know how I could select and order such, will it be through an extension of your existing website as an item/s to purchase with a picture or video, ebay? or will it be more what people ask you for?

I'm more than happy to ship any fish we have in stock, but at this stage we don't have it set up so you can select or order on line, given time, and demand I might get around to taking photos of more unusual fish & putting them on our website.
Shipping costs are £17.50 for orders over £25 and £25 for orders under £25.
For the moment either contact me through a PM here, or ring the shop 01452 862791.
I'm currently on holiday, & won't be back at the shop until the 2nd September.

all i know is that you probably have a lot of young wild angels.
Sadly I have to balance what I would like to stock, with what actually sells, and wild angels are quite a specialist beast.

What I do have is a lot of my "Manu-Nanus" (25% Manacapuru, 50% Rio Nanay) they're £3.90 each or 6 for £19.50 and I think they're going to be rather special when they're bigger. look out for some photos shortly!

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