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my zebra angels

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my zebra angels

Post  Phil Unsworth on Thu 18 Apr 2013, 19:23

don't understand why my young fish don't have the full black strips like the parents do,the strips are broken up. any advice, is it something to do with lighting times from when the eggs are laid.
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Re: my zebra angels

Post  Pterophyllum on Thu 18 Apr 2013, 23:35

Hi Phil,
Welcome to the forum.
Some photos of parents and fry would possibly help, but certainly photoperiod (duration of lighting) and possibly intensity could be factors.
It could also be that the pattern will intensify as the fry age.
Another factor, affecting some of the fry could be that both parents are heterozygous for zebra (have only one copy of the gene). If that's the case then 25% of the fry should be homozygous (having two copies of the gene) this can subtly alter the pattern.

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Re: my zebra angels

Post  spyderuk on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 15:48

I was about to post on your other thread but as Rob has mentioned the lighting period may have an effect you may find the following link a good read.

http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/articles/norton/dr_norton(10).htm

Also remember that they will change as they grow up. Very Happy

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Re: my zebra angels

Post  Phil Unsworth on Sat 20 Apr 2013, 23:22

Thanks for the reply and the info, just need a little more time with the photo's
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Phil' zebra's

Post  Phil Unsworth on Mon 22 Apr 2013, 21:18

Sorry the photo's are still being a pain to put on the forum, anyway the adult's have 3 and 4 black bands and dull silver in between the black bands are unbroken, I have two breeding pairs from the same group of juveniles and they have been spawning readily for about 12 month's, in breeding colour they are really nice.
The slate on which they lay the eggs on is under shade from the main lights, I remove the fry from the parents when they are free swimming. the adults, also the rearing tanks are under automatic lighting with 14 hours of light then total darkens.
''Ok here's the thing'' the fry grow, some have markings as silver angels. Most have broken 3 or 4 black bands all have individual pattern's. not cobra pattern.'' Am i missing something regarding the genetics of parent angel's,'' is it a case of having the correct genetics ie adult's, to produce the desired angel's, ie fry/juveniles.
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Re: my zebra angels

Post  spyderuk on Tue 23 Apr 2013, 14:31

If your after a certain type of fry then yes, having the right make up of genes in the parents is required.

What are the problems you are having with the photo's? Taking them or uploading to the forum? Photo's would help others assist further.

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Re: my zebra angels

Post  gibbo156 on Sat 27 Apr 2013, 17:13

That link didn't work for me but this one does.

Phil's link

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Re: my zebra angels

Post  gibbo156 on Sat 27 Apr 2013, 17:18

spyderuk wrote:If your after a certain type of fry then yes, having the right make up of genes in the parents is required.

It MIGHT be that one or the other of the parents is only carrying one copy of the zebra gene from its own parent.
So If one of your zebra parents is only z/+ and not z/z then some of the offspring will also be only z/+ and then the amount the zebra stripes show will be down to environmental factors.
The fry in the picture is very young anyway and so, in my inexperienced personal opinion, it may be too soon to tell yet.
They all look fit and healthy which is the important thing.

Nice fish
cheers
gibbo

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Re: my zebra angels

Post  Pterophyllum on Sat 27 Apr 2013, 20:32

The fish in the photo are both zebras, because zebra is a dominant gene a fish need only inherit a copy from one parent to be a zebra, such fish are called heterozygous and this is denoted as Z/+.
Mating two such fish will produce 25% homozygous zebras (Z/Z), 50% heterozygous zebras (Z/+) and 25% silvers (+/+).
Intensity and duration of lighting can also influence band development. The broken banding may be down to having the light on constantly, or for an extended, or indeed unusually short period. You might find this link helpful :-

http://theangelfishsociety.org/articles/norton/dr_norton(6).htm

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Genetics

Post  Phil Unsworth on Sun 28 Apr 2013, 14:14

Thank's for the info.
I have the book Angelfish by Robert j. Goldstein, Ph.D. the section titled GENETICS is very heavy reading for someone like me. I thought a pair of angel's with the same colour
or and pattern would result in the same,colour,pattern offspring. I will have to Understand the genetics, so a can make the right decision in selecting a pair to breed from. ''right''. Shocked Ok that's fine, all the info is in books and online,''lets do it''. Smile
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Zebra genes

Post  Phil Unsworth on Wed 01 May 2013, 18:34

Ok here's the thing, tell me if my thinking is correct?
I always have 25% silver, the pair could be z/+ & z/+, but not z/z & z/+. using the punnett square the result for z/z & z/+.
50% z/z and 50% z/+. 100% would look like zebra's ?

For z/+ & z/+ the result would be:-
50% z/+ zebra
25% z/z zebra
25% +/+ silver

75% would look like zebra's, how do i tell the z/z from the z/+ ????

Am i on the right line's confused

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Re: my zebra angels

Post  Pterophyllum on Wed 01 May 2013, 19:46

Exactly correct.

Very hard to tell Z/Z's from Z/+'s
Z/Z's are reputedly slower growing, and tend to have more dots between the bands, neither is 100% reliable destinguishing feature, but it's a start.

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Re: my zebra angels

Post  spyderuk on Wed 01 May 2013, 20:46

I'm not too sure with zebras but I'm sure Rob has it covered above.

A test cross to a silver would answer your questions. Handy if you were looking to produce 100% zebra offspring.

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Test cross

Post  Phil Unsworth on Sat 04 May 2013, 12:41

''WOW'' this is what i love about this hobby or is it more than a hobby, never thought i could ever understand the genetics. When i get my head round this test cross it's going to take me to a whole new level, understanding all this may be easier than doing it in practice. It's a long term thing, i feel, is any body in control of what there angel's turn out to look like, the hobbyist i mean, people like me in there shed,fishhouse,cellar,garage. Very Happy
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My zebra's

Post  Phil Unsworth on Sun 05 May 2013, 11:46

spyderuk wrote:I'm not too sure with zebras but I'm sure Rob has it covered above.

A test cross to a silver would answer your questions. Handy if you were looking to produce 100% zebra offspring.

Thank's
yes i understand now, you no having 25% silver's from a hatch has added one extra angel phenotype to my collection Smile. The original query i put onto the forum, i feel is due to the development of the fry. My zebra's are happy to lay about every 2 to 3 weeks, i will make some changes regarding the lighting, i will let you no how i go on cheers. Smile
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Re: my zebra angels

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 05 May 2013, 22:54

is any body in control of what there angel's turn out to look like,
If you keep records of parents, siblings etc. it's possible to build up a pretty clear picture of the genetics of your fish, and to choose two that will give a good proportion of the particular variety you're aiming for.
However, in my experience, it's often the by product of such pairings which prove to be the most interesting and/or attractive. - It's very easy to find yourself flying off at a tangent from your original goal!

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Re: my zebra angels

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