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PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

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PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 19 Feb 2012, 18:40

I would like some help with the identification of my 10 week old babies. Dad is a blue silver and mum a smokey paraiba from John Wharmby. It has been suggested the smokey paraiba is at best a het pb smokey blushing. I would be grateful to hear from other members who have fish from John's lines with their opinions on the babies' phenotypes.

Mum


Dad



The Babies


































I have spoken to John and he informs me these babies will not "blue up" until 50p bodysize. Can anyone confirm this from experience?

Thanks in advance for any help. It's driving me crazy trying to confirm both mum's and babies' phenotypes.

Apologies for so many photos, but I was trying to capture them in different lights and at different angles.
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Blue Spangles

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 19 Feb 2012, 18:47

I've enlarged the pictures and I'm sure in some I see the blue spangles starting to develop that are indicative of pb/pb. Does anyone else see them?
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Ghipsi on Sun 19 Feb 2012, 20:28

Yes, Johns blue colours can take until 50p size and about to show the blue Very Happy , I have been to Johns many a time & walked past tanks of youngsters that didn't catch my eye (even though John was telling me they were pb/pb) and when I visited them next time I couldn't keep my eyes off them as they were now stunning and obviously blue Very Happy , yes John you told me so Embarassed time after time Embarassed ).
So the next point is to work out if single or double pb? if single pb then there will be a selection of youngsters that won't be pb/pb, so keep your eye out for them to compare to, and from the images its looking good to me as I have a Titanium Blue that I have crossed with one of Daves WildXSingapore Blues & I am having to look carefully at the moment as some of my other blue lines (not Johns lines) are showing blue even at 5p size.
The Best always keep you waiting, LOL
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  kp61 on Sun 19 Feb 2012, 20:52

The first pic. you can see the blue irridescence it looks more the blue turquoise you get from the czech leopards or German blacks. The second picture looks more like the German blue silvers. I think that is a different blue gene than the pb gene. As the pb gene shows in the fish under 20p size. As there was a post on one of the American sites stating there was more than one way for the blue gene to express itself in different pinotypes. Thats my tuppence worth if it is any use, I'll probably be wrong as usual, I think Rob is the best to answer.
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 19 Feb 2012, 21:40

Ghipsi wrote:Yes, Johns blue colours can take until 50p size and about to show the blue Very Happy , I have been to Johns many a time & walked past tanks of youngsters that didn't catch my eye (even though John was telling me they were pb/pb) and when I visited them next time I couldn't keep my eyes off them as they were now stunning and obviously blue Very Happy , yes John you told me so Embarassed time after time Embarassed ).
So the next point is to work out if single or double pb? if single pb then there will be a selection of youngsters that won't be pb/pb, so keep your eye out for them to compare to, and from the images its looking good to me as I have a Titanium Blue that I have crossed with one of Daves WildXSingapore Blues & I am having to look carefully at the moment as some of my other blue lines (not Johns lines) are showing blue even at 5p size.
The Best always keep you waiting, LOL

Lisa

Well Lisa, they should all be pb/pb or double dose blue gene as John uses German Blues and Titanium Blues in his lines. Double dose because mum is supposed to be a Smokey Paraiba and dad is a Blue Silver. Do you think mum is a paraiba or a smokey blushing?
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 19 Feb 2012, 21:43

kp61 wrote:The first pic. you can see the blue irridescence it looks more the blue turquoise you get from the czech leopards or German blacks. The second picture looks more like the German blue silvers. I think that is a different blue gene than the pb gene. As the pb gene shows in the fish under 20p size. As there was a post on one of the American sites stating there was more than one way for the blue gene to express itself in different pinotypes. Thats my tuppence worth if it is any use, I'll probably be wrong as usual, I think Rob is the best to answer.

Rob was undecided on these youngsters when I posted pics on Angelfish.net a few weeks ago. Perhaps he will comment when he sees the new pictures?
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Pterophyllum on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 00:58

I think Rob is the best to answer.
Not necessarily, I've never seen any of John's fish in the flesh.
I've certainly seen photos of some of his fish that look like they are pb/pb, and I've seen photos of other fish which look very different from what I'd expect a pb/pb fish to look like.
When it comes to my fish, all the blues that I have, have some degree of Ken Kennedy fish in their ancestry, but they are also all descended from one, Israeli bred, platinum female I had. I mated her to two different males, a gold of unknown origin, and a platinum male imported from Germany. I mated Ken's fish, to offspring of one of these two pairings. Upto this point, I have seen no evidence to suggest that there is any difference between the pb genes derived from Kens fish, and those derived from the German or Israeli fish.
I am pretty confident that blue fish from Singapore also have the same gene.
A koi angel is a blushing gold marble either Gm/Gm - S/S or Gm/g - S/S, despite having the same basic gene combination there is huge variation between them, some have little of no gold, others are almost 100% covered in gold, orange or even trending to red. I suspect that the same will prove to be the case for pb/pb fish. That said, I think it will be really interesting to see what happens when Ken's fish are mated to some of John's, if I had the space I'd be doing those crosses now, as it is, I'm going to have to wait for someone else to try that particular experiment.


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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Ghipsi on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 07:42

That said, I think it will be really interesting to see what happens when Ken's fish are mated to some of John's, if I had the space I'd be doing those crosses now, as it is, I'm going to have to wait for someone else to try that particular experiment.

Now if I could get hold of some of Kens Lines I would love to work them into Johns lines Smile , anyone with any sub adults or aduls available? Very Happy

Helen, any chance of some new images of the Smokey Paraiba in question or even a video please? And are there any smokey images?
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 08:47

[quote="Pterophyllum"]
That said, I think it will be really interesting to see what happens when Ken's fish are mated to some of John's, if I had the space I'd be doing those crosses now, as it is, I'm going to have to wait fuor someone else to try that particular experiment.


Funny you should mention that. I have a male smokey lace (het pb) and a female zebra lace (het pb) whose father is a Ken Kennedy blue smokey. I did pair him with John's pinoy smokey paraiba. Unfortunately he became a little aggressive toward her during spawning, and I had to separate them. He had a very strong bond with the zebra lace, and I wonder if that is the problem. I am keeping him separate from the zebra lace in the hope I can pair him with the pinoy smokey paraiba in the future. I will keep you updated.

With regards to these babies, I am keeping some for ukbulldog until Spring. I should therefore be able to confirm if they do indeed "blue up".
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 08:50

Ghipsi wrote:
That said, I think it will be really interesting to see what happens when Ken's fish are mated to some of John's, if I had the space I'd be doing those crosses now, as it is, I'm going to have to wait for someone else to try that particular experiment.

Now if I could get hold of some of Kens Lines I would love to work them into Johns lines Smile , anyone with any sub adults or aduls available? Very Happy

Helen, any chance of some new images of the Smokey Paraiba in question or even a video please? And are there any smokey images?
lisa

I'll try to get some more images of the smokey paraiba. She's a nightmare to photograph. She disappears when I get the camera out.

When you say "smokey", do you mean the smokey ghost babies in this batch?
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Ghipsi on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 13:43

When you say "smokey", do you mean the smokey ghost babies in this batch?

yes please Very Happy
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Pterophyllum on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 16:25

Now if I could get hold of some of Kens Lines I would love to work them into Johns lines , anyone with any sub adults or aduls available?


I could be persuaded to part with a few of mine, but as noted in my previous post, I don't have any that are 100% pure bred Ken Kennedy fish.
If you're interested, let me know what varieties you are after, I'll let you know what I can bear to part with! Only draw back is I don't post at the moment.

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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Grummie2 on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 18:56

From the pics, the female although showing a lot of blue, does not show the blue fin webbing in the base of the caudal fin as you find in most pb strains. The male does look to be a blue but there is also something not quite the same. None of the fry at this stage in their development appear to be pb 'blue' IMO. Simon (whos not found this forum yet) also bred Johns fish and didn't find them to be as 'blue' as he'd expected, maybe when he's found us he'll expand on this. I'm sure some of Johns fish carry a 'blue' gene (or something thats gives a similar effect), and maybe some other new genes as well as enhanced versions of known genes; without many test crosses it's very difficult to say just whats happening.
The cross I've made with the streaked pinoy paraiba (Sing blue x parents) and the blue marble ghost (KK father, Sing blue mother) has thrown the expected blues (shiney head buttons) but also some no head button types, I will need to grow them on more to see how they turn out. If they do not end up 'blues' then something odd is happening.......

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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Pterophyllum on Mon 20 Feb 2012, 21:41

None of the fry at this stage in their development appear to be pb 'blue' IMO.
I agree with that assessment.

Simon (whos not found this forum yet) also bred Johns fish and didn't find them to be as 'blue' as he'd expected, maybe when he's found us he'll expand on this.
I have sent him a pm on TAF II, but I don't think he visits there that often.

has thrown the expected blues (shiney head buttons) but also some no head button types,
Personally I'm not convinced that the head button is that reliable an indicator, it shows clearly enough on some varieties, but I've had non pb babies which seem to show it, and it's far from obvious on some pb/pb varieties, especially paraibas and darker pinoys.

I think it's well worth thinking about how the pb gene exerts it's effect.
Most colour genes work by adding removing or redistributing pigment. so for example "Dark" causes cells to produce more melanin that they would normally do, "gold" significantly reduces the amount of melanin produced, "albino" prevents the production of any melanin. Marble causes some cells to produce extra melanin, but in a random pattern.
Half black on the other had causes some cells to produce extra melanin, but only in a defined area.

pb seems to have two effects, it does seem to reduce the amount of melanin, so in a fish like a gold angel, the levels of melanin are reduced still further to produce a platinum; but it also has an effect on the way light is reflected, the blue that we see in pb fish is a structural colour. That is to say it results not from a blue pigment, but from the way light falling on the fish is refracted and reflected. Visible light ranges from about 430nm - 770nm with blue being a shorter wavelength. In butterflys, which owe most of their colour to structural effects, it has been shown that very subtle changes can result in the expression of significantly different colours. I think it's highly likely that something similar could well happen with the pb gene. Indeed, I suspect we see it happening in the way the colour in pinoy's changes. Young pinoys have a brown colour to their backs, as they grow this lightens, and eventually develops into a rich blue or even purple.

Since John says his fish develop their blue later, could it be that (some of) his fish carry either a modifier gene, or a subtly different form of pb which delay the structural changes which cause the blue colour to develop?

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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Tue 21 Feb 2012, 00:27

Grummie2 wrote:From the pics, the female although showing a lot of blue, does not show the blue fin webbing in the base of the caudal fin as you find in most pb strains. The male does look to be a blue but there is also something not quite the same. None of the fry at this stage in their development appear to be pb 'blue' IMO. Simon (whos not found this forum yet) also bred Johns fish and didn't find them to be as 'blue' as he'd expected, maybe when he's found us he'll expand on this. I'm sure some of Johns fish carry a 'blue' gene (or something thats gives a similar effect), and maybe some other new genes as well as enhanced versions of known genes; without many test crosses it's very difficult to say just whats happening.
The cross I've made with the streaked pinoy paraiba (Sing blue x parents) and the blue marble ghost (KK father, Sing blue mother) has thrown the expected blues (shiney head buttons) but also some no head button types, I will need to grow them on more to see how they turn out. If they do not end up 'blues' then something odd is happening.......

Here is a picture of the blue silver. I think it shows that he is a blue silver and not just a plain silver. I have had silvers before and this blue Silver looks totally different:

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif


Here is a video of the smokey paraiba. I think you can just about see the webbing in the caudal:

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif4
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Ghipsi on Tue 21 Feb 2012, 00:54

Wow, they are both beauties! & YES the Blue Silver is Blue Silver Very Happy & your Smokey paraiba is definatly bluer than my Smokey Blue Boy!!!
The youngsters are going to look stunning as they grow! Lisa
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Tue 21 Feb 2012, 06:41

Thanks Lisa. I have a confession to make. I can't get anymore pics of the smokey babies. I took them all to my local aquatic shop before remembering I had promised pictures. Embarassed

I did take pictures a few weeks ago. I'll see if I can find them.
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Tue 21 Feb 2012, 07:03

I only have a couple of pics of the smokeys. I think I concentrated more on the ghosts because they are my favourites!







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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Ghipsi on Tue 21 Feb 2012, 07:44

Shame, I love the smokey genes, they take a while to realy shine but at 50p size and above the colours realy start to develop.
The more I look at your images the more I say yes to pb/pb. ps the smokeys are beautys!
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Tue 21 Feb 2012, 09:33

Ghipsi wrote:Shame, I love the smokey genes, they take a while to realy shine but at 50p size and above the colours realy start to develop.
The more I look at your images the more I say yes to pb/pb. ps the smokeys are beautys!

I hope you're right. I do like smokeys, but I have too many. I have a smokey lace, smokey paraiba and a pinoy smokey paraiba and I only have 5 adults! I can always make more of these babies as I still have the parents.

I can't wait for my remaining ghosts to get to 50p to confirm whether they are pb/pb. I will keep you updated with pics.
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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Pterophyllum on Tue 21 Feb 2012, 19:03

Graham wrote
None of the fry at this stage in their development appear to be pb 'blue' IMO.
and I quoted this and highlighted the key word "appear" and said I agree.

But looking at the photos of the smokies I would agree with Lisa that they all appear to be pb/pb. I think, this shows the difficulty of making definitive pronouncements about young fish especially from photos.
Checking back through my records for my first batch of blues (which were all pb/pb) I wrote "blue starting come through" at 6 week free swimming stage.
And with a later batch where there were a mixture of heterozygous and homozygous individuals, the pb/pb were very distinctly different from the +/pb fish by about 8 weeks old; although when it comes to blushing fish, they take a little longer before you can destinguish them with certainty.

I can't comment on your video as it won't play on my computer for some reason.

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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Wed 22 Feb 2012, 00:17

Pterophyllum wrote:Graham wrote
None of the fry at this stage in their development appear to be pb 'blue' IMO.
and I quoted this and highlighted the key word "appear" and said I agree.

But looking at the photos of the smokies I would agree with Lisa that they all appear to be pb/pb. I think, this shows the difficulty of making definitive pronouncements about young fish especially from photos.
Checking back through my records for my first batch of blues (which were all pb/pb) I wrote "blue starting come through" at 6 week free swimming stage.
And with a later batch where there were a mixture of heterozygous and homozygous individuals, the pb/pb were very distinctly different from the +/pb fish by about 8 weeks old; although when it comes to blushing fish, they take a little longer before you can destinguish them with certainty.

I can't comment on your video as it won't play on my computer for some reason.


Thanks Rob. All my smokies have gone to new homes now, but one went to my best friend. I will keep an eye on him to see if, and when, the blue develops.

I still have 13 ghosts left. I've been observing them very closely and noticed blue starting to appear in their caudals. Regardless of whether they are pb/pb or not, I'm really happy with their patternation, shape and fin formation. I will try to get some decent pictures, but as you know, its extremely difficult to capture their true colours at this size.

Sorry about the video, but I can't play it on my mobile, and it was taken with my mobile!

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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  Grummie2 on Wed 22 Feb 2012, 11:53

Now, from the new pictures it appears they are pb/pb (or similar gene) fish, its frustrating to find how difficult it is to capture this gene successfully on camera. As we find with koi angels, there's a great diversity in expression, this could also apply to the blue varieties. I certainly think a cross between one of Johns fish and one of kens would shed some light on the situation though.
In the near future I'm hoping for a spawn from a KK koi paraiba (Gm/Gm - Sm/+ -S/S - pb/pb) and one of his blue marble ghost daughters (Gm/+ - S/+ - pb/pb, mother Sing blue), maybe some of the resulting fry will be of some use to anyone with Johns fish wishing to do some crosses (bit of a long term project tho')?

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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Wed 22 Feb 2012, 17:07

Grummie2 wrote:Now, from the new pictures it appears they are pb/pb (or similar gene) fish, its frustrating to find how difficult it is to capture this gene successfully on camera. As we find with koi angels, there's a great diversity in expression, this could also apply to the blue varieties. I certainly think a cross between one of Johns fish and one of kens would shed some light on the situation though.
In the near future I'm hoping for a spawn from a KK koi paraiba (Gm/Gm - Sm/+ -S/S - pb/pb) and one of his blue marble ghost daughters (Gm/+ - S/+ - pb/pb, mother Sing blue), maybe some of the resulting fry will be of some use to anyone with Johns fish wishing to do some crosses (bit of a long term project tho')?

As I said, I have a het pb smokey lace whose father was a Jen Kennedy fish. I hope I can get him to spawn with one of John's paraibas in the future.

Here's some new pictures of the ghosts:-


















I love the dorsal on this one:






This is my favourite out of this batch. I love the pattern of the broken stripes:-














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Re: PB OR NOT PB? - THAT IS THE QUESTION

Post  endlessendlers on Fri 24 Feb 2012, 07:05

Ghipsi wrote:Shame, I love the smokey genes, they take a while to realy shine but at 50p size and above the colours realy start to develop.
The more I look at your images the more I say yes to pb/pb. ps the smokeys are beautys!

Hi Lisa. What is it about the smokey babies that makes you think they are pb/pb?
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