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Lumps white and black needing identifying

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Lumps white and black needing identifying

Post  contracube on Tue 11 Sep 2012, 18:53

Hello, This is just the forum I've been looking for; I'm new at this and had my angels for nearly year now and going strong. I had some fish loss to start with (some gourami and celebes rainbows) but haven't had any casualties now for 6 months.

However I am curious and trying not to be worried about two of my angels. One of my platinums has what appears to be 2x black growths/ entities under the skin; one at the root of the dorsal and one in the top of his right eye no larger than 3mm across I'd say. Another platinum/ gold angel has a white lump across its dorsal as well and on one of its swimming fins. Def. not white spot. Has anyone experience of this. Question

My tank and inhabitant parameters are:
Freshwater tropical unplanted. Air tube supply aeration.
550l Tank inc. @100l sump (145 Gallons) (190cm long, 85cm high & 28cm wide).
Regulated Temp: 24-25 degrees C (74’-77’F)
GH - General Hardness High @180ppm
KH - Carbonate Hardness High @<240ppm dropping with the inclusion of RO water
pH - Just Alkaline @7.5 dropping from 8 with the inclusion of RO water
N02 - Nitrite OK @ <0.5ppm
N03 - Nitrate moderate @<40ppm March 2012 @10-20ppm much lower now with RO water introduced April 2012.
Aquasacpae of vertical slates, smooth black gravel & large pieces of sinking African hardwood.
24W Cool white LED Strip
(100-120l sump filter 90cm l x 45cm w x 40cm h. - situated 3metres below with lava stone bacterial growing sacks & mineral wool filter, activated carbon replaced every 3-4 months, heater bay and then pump bay).
Additives - 115l (25%) water change every 10-14days (100l RO water & 10-30l tap water) with biological bacterial agent and aquarium salt added every month or so.
Feeding once a day with mixture of Tetra Prima Discus food & flake, its gone in 20 seconds. One cube of brineshrimp once a week. Algae wafer or parboiled courgette twice a week at dusk, so bottom dwellers get the lions share.
6x Pterophyllum scalare - Angel fish - 4x Platinum all males I think and 2x larger platinum with gold and black markings are female, occasional egg lying. cheers
7x Puntius denisonii - Denisonii Barb
10x Marosatherina ladigesi - Celebes Rainbow Fish
3x Synodontis nigriventris - Upside down Catfish
2x Botia lohachata - Yo-Yo Loach
1x Ancistrus spp. - Bristlenose Male

Any comments gratefully accepted and appreciated.
Cheers C
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Re: Lumps white and black needing identifying

Post  Pterophyllum on Tue 11 Sep 2012, 19:34

All sounds & looks pretty good, although a slightly higher temperature might be good for the angels and gourami's , but not the Denisoni Barbs.
The only other problem is that the photo of the fish doesn't clearly show the marks.
How long have they had them? Only recently appeared (1) a long time/as long as I've had them (2)
Do they appear raised (1) or flush with the skin (2)?
Are they growing in size, number or spreading to other fish? Yes (1) No (2)
My two best guesses at the moment are
if you answered mostly 1's - skin cancer or possible subcutaneous parasite, particularly if they are imported fish which were raised in outside pools.
if you answered mostly 2's you've probably got platinum marbles, some platinum marbles show so little marbling that they are easily mistaken for platinums.

HTH and welcome to the forum, glad you found us!


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Re: Lumps white and black needing identifying

Post  contracube on Tue 11 Sep 2012, 21:02

Pterophyllum wrote:All sounds & looks pretty good, although a slightly higher temperature might be good for the angels and gourami's , but not the Denisoni Barbs.
The only other problem is that the photo of the fish doesn't clearly show the marks.
How long have they had them? Only recently appeared (1) a long time/as long as I've had them (2)
Do they appear raised (1) or flush with the skin (2)?
Are they growing in size, number or spreading to other fish? Yes (1) No (2)
My two best guesses at the moment are
if you answered mostly 1's - skin cancer or possible subcutaneous parasite, particularly if they are imported fish which were raised in outside pools.
if you answered mostly 2's you've probably got platinum marbles, some platinum marbles show so little marbling that they are easily mistaken for platinums.

HTH and welcome to the forum, glad you found us!


Hello, and thank you for the speedy and excellent reply.
The photo you saw was a bad attempt to put a title photo on my profile however I now have had a go at photographing the offending lumps!

To answer your questions for:

a. Platinum with black marks:
1 - recently appeared - 2 weeks
2 - inside the skin although eye one is part of swelling partial pop-eye
1 and 2 - there was just a black spot inside the dorsal root but then I noticed the eye a few days later. No other fish show this unless it related to b.

b. Gold Platinum Female

1-2 spot on dorsal recent, spot on swimming fin 6 months old and raised eye part a few months old
1- raised of skin
1-2 not spreading as such unless related to fish a. lumps not really growing larger but will observe more closely.

To mention their behaviour not generally affected except gold platinum one seems to have lost a bit of her gold vibrancy colour.

I no longer have Gouramis not for the last 8 months, they were not a very healthy fish. In April I was treating the tank with anti swim bladder bacteria and salt as the rainbow fish were getting partial cloudy white coverings, red gills, panting a lot and dying, that seemed to do the trick and as I said no loss since April.

I think looking at your answer we are looking at some sort of parasite and would therefore ask what your recommendations are for treating them. Question

Many thanks!
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Re: Lumps white and black needing identifying

Post  Pterophyllum on Tue 11 Sep 2012, 22:09

OK to deal with the gold marble first, it really doesn't look good at all.
It's stomach is very pinched, and it's whole demeanour, the way it's holding it's fins and the disproportionately large eye, all point to a fish which isn't very well. My guess would be that it's got a serious intestinal infection and I would be treating either with octozin or a worming product such as flubendazole. Up until recently that was quite tricky to get hold of, but recently a couple of products which use it as the active ingredient have become available, NT labs Anti-fluke & wormer being one, and tetra have just launched a similar product.

The platinum doesn't look as sick to me, but those lumps are of serious concern.

You state:-

I no longer have Gouramis not for the last 8 months, they were not a very healthy fish.

Did they get very thin, loose colour, and develop red open sores ringed with white?

If so they were probably suffering from fish TB, not actually TB, but a condition that can, in rare cases, infect humans.

One symptom of fish TB is the development of small, subcutaneous nodules, although a quick google suggests the nodules seen in fish TB are usually white or grey rather than black. They could also be a symptom of a parasitic worm, sometimes seen in wild caught and pond raised fish.
My inclination would be to try a course of wormer and if that doesn't shift it, you might need to think about getting a vet to biopsy it. In the mean time, never start your syphon by sucking the tube. Always wear gloves when working on the tank if you have any cuts or abrasions on your hands, and always wash your hands carefully after working on the tank.



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Re: Lumps white and black needing identifying

Post  contracube on Wed 12 Sep 2012, 09:06

Great thanks! I think I will try the wormer; I tried to find out the instructions for use and active ingredients but to no immediate avail. I assume its a water treatment and that my loaches, ancistrus, rainbowfish, barb etc will all get a dose as well and survive?

On the gourami, yes and no; they did have pale nodes under the skin but no red ringed ulcers. The female also had dropsy at the end but that could have been a secondary infection? I hope we don't have fish TB in the tank as I cut myself on the slates in the water almost every time I hoover the tank!

I'll let you know how I get on!
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