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Angels "Panting"

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Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 27 May 2012, 10:29

More or less every morning for the last two weeks I've checked my angels in the 55g to find them "panting". Around the time this started I began treatment with ESha Hexamita for internal parasites. I treated all my tanks, but this is the only one with the "panting" behaviour. Since this behaviour began I've done a 50% gravel clean and cleaned the internal filter, a week later I cleaned the external filter. I've been doing extra water changes when this behaviour has been noted as well as my usual 2 x 30% weekly water changes. If I run the bubble wall the "panting" ceases.

To add to the "panting" a few of the angels have become slightly bloated in the past week. I've refrained from feeding for two days until the bloat subsides, but after feeding they look bloated again, but it's not always the same fish who are affected.

These are my current readings:-Ph - 6.6 Ammonia - 0 Nitrate - 0 Nitrite - 0

Oddly my Ph has dropped from 7.4, which had been stable for the last 8 months plus. I'm also surprised to note the Nitrate has been running at 0 for the last week or so. I do have swords, java moss, anubias and windlov fern in the tank, but until recently the Nitrates were usually around 10.

I've given all the info I can think of. Does anyone have any suggestions as to why my angels are "panting"?
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  Ghipsi on Sun 27 May 2012, 11:51

'Panting', can be a sign of lack of enough oxygen in the water. Lack of oxygen is a common killer of angels, especialy when meds have been added as they often reduce the amount of oxygen in the water. Lisa

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Bacteria loss

Post  TONY,S ANGELS on Sun 27 May 2012, 12:14

As lisa said it is not enough oxygen well desolved oxygen any way, but has the med
killed or knocked back your bacteria and giving you some ammonia which woul make them gasp a the top.
partial water change and turn up the air and if you have some,stress coat will help.
hope this helps you.
cheers Tony
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 27 May 2012, 13:05

I'm sure its a lack of oxygen, but there was never a problem before using the meds. There can't still be any meds in the tank surely? I must have changed 100% of the water twice in the last two weeks. The "panting" does stop immediately after the water change or within an hour of turning the bubble wall on.

Tony, there is definitely no ammonia in the water. I can't remember the last time there was a reading for ammonia in this tank.

Perhaps I should run some carbon?
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  Sjones_1 on Sun 27 May 2012, 15:57

Could it be the hot weather? I know some people I've spoken to have seen increases of 4-5 degrees and this could cause the decrease in dissolved oxygen.

Maybe raising the filter outlet above the water line could help.

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Air up

Post  TONY,S ANGELS on Sun 27 May 2012, 16:55

As Sam has said and i agree if it is just the oxygen then turn up your air stone and it
should get every thing back on track very fast.
if not i would start to look at new tank syndrone if you have changed that much
water, you could have starved the bacteria so that they die back to a sustainable level
and it will not always show a minute amount on a test but the fish get stresed easly.
I my self keep some 160 pairing of fish in one of my 6 footers as you know that is far to meany for that size of tank but if they look stresed i do a 50% water change which some times is to much and i to get a little bit of new tank sindrome but i turn the air up and within 24 hrs they are all happy again.
hope this will help to solve your stress as well as the fish.
cheers Tony
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 27 May 2012, 19:01

Sjones_1 wrote:Could it be the hot weather? I know some people I've spoken to have seen increases of 4-5 degrees and this could cause the decrease in dissolved oxygen.

Maybe raising the filter outlet above the water line could help.

Sam

Thanks Sam. I've been turning the heaters off during the day and turning them back on at night. This keeps the temp steady at 82 deg.
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 27 May 2012, 20:09

TONY,S ANGELS wrote:As Sam has said and i agree if it is just the oxygen then turn up your air stone and it
should get every thing back on track very fast.
if not i would start to look at new tank syndrone if you have changed that much
water, you could have starved the bacteria so that they die back to a sustainable level
and it will not always show a minute amount on a test but the fish get stresed easly.
I my self keep some 160 pairing of fish in one of my 6 footers as you know that is far to meany for that size of tank but if they look stresed i do a 50% water change which some times is to much and i to get a little bit of new tank sindrome but i turn the air up and within 24 hrs they are all happy again.
hope this will help to solve your stress as well as the fish.
cheers Tony

Thanks Tony. I'll keep the bubble wall on and do my usual 30% water change on Tuesday.
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 27 May 2012, 20:12

Sjones_1 wrote:Could it be the hot weather? I know some people I've spoken to have seen increases of 4-5 degrees and this could cause the decrease in dissolved oxygen.

Maybe raising the filter outlet above the water line could help.

Sam

I can't raise the internal filter outlet above the water level, but I will raise the spray bar from the external filter.
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Bloating

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 27 May 2012, 20:13

I've only recently started feeding these angels Tetra Pro and the catfish in the tank algae wafers. Could these foods swell in the gut after being eaten, causing the bloating? Just a thought.
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 27 May 2012, 20:18

Hi Helen,
It's clear that your fish are suffering from lack of oxygen, but why?....

There are two possible explanations.....

1. There's not enough oxygen in the water.
2. Something is preventing the fish from absorbing the oxygen from the water.

As has been noted, as the water temperature increases it's ability to hold oxygen decreases, but what hasn't been mentioned is that as water temperature rises, the fish's metabolism rate also increases, meaning they need more oxygen. Further more the activity of bacteria breaking down the the organic waste also increases, using up more oxygen and depleating the oxygen levels still further. Finally some treatments cause an increase in the surface tension of the water making it harder for oxygen to enter and carbon dioxide to escape. One such chemical is flubendazole, I know you have been treating with this - is this one of the tanks treated?

How many fish do you have in the tank?

other explanations include gill damage due to parasites (gill flukes etc.) or damage as the result of exposure to chemicals such as ammonia.

Finally with regards to your pH.
The normal buffering system in an aquarium is the interaction between the kH (carbonate hardness) and the CO2(carbon dioxide) level.

At any given KH level, the higher the concentration of CO2 the lower the pH.
At any given CO2 level, the lower the KH the lower the pH will be.

A significant fall in your pH either means your KH has dropped significantly or your CO2 levels have risen substantially.

Please check your KH, it should be in excess of 2, if it's lower, in particular if it's below 1, there is a serious risk of your pH crashing.
If it's above 2, then the drop in pH probably indicates a significant increase in the CO2 level, the usual causes of this are increased feeding, increased stocking levels, excessive build up of detritus in filters/aquarium, decomposition of other organic mater (eg bog wood).

If on the other hand your KH is below 1, the fall in pH is probably indicitive of declining kH levels. The next step is to check the kH of the water you are using for water changes.
Assuming the the kH of that water is above 2, based on your information about the frequency of your water changes, and the fact that you have cleaned your filters recently, the most likely explanation is excessive stocking, or excessive feeding.

Any organic matter which is added to the aquarium (fish food, decaying plants and bog wood, etc.) are broken down by your filter bacteria, you're probably familiar with the ammonia - nitrite - nitrate chain, what you may not be aware of is the fact that the bacteria which carry out this decomposition also produce acids in the process. These acids react with the KH in the water. As long as the rate you replace the kH as you carry out water changes is equal to the rate that the kH is used up then the kH & pH will remain stable. The danger comes when the rate that kH is being used up exceeds the rate that it's being replenished.

KH is usually measured in degrees of German Hardness 1dh = 17.8ppm (mg/l) so a 100 litre tank with a kH of 4 contains 100 x 4 x 17.8 mg = 7120mg = 7.12g of calcium carbonate.

If that tank had a pH of 7.4 and all other things remaining equal the kH was reduced to 0.4, the pH would fall to 6.4,
a fall from 4 to .4 kH would mean that about 6.4g of the calcium carbonate had been used up, say that fall took 6 months (26 weeks), left unchecked it would take only a little over 2 and a half weeks for the kH to fall by a further 90% to just 0.04, the pH would follow it down to 5.4, less than 48 hours later, the kH would be down to 0.004 and the pH down to 4.4.

Sorry to labour the point, but check that kH urgently!

In the meantime, reduce temperature if possible, maintain good aeriation, carry out regular daily water changes, stop/reduce feeding and stop the addition of all treatments.



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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 27 May 2012, 20:44

I don't have a GH/KH test kit, and money is a bit tight at the moment. Two of my kids have birthdays this week. Need I say more?

What should I drop the temp to, and what percentage of water should I change daily?
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 27 May 2012, 20:51

Take a jam jar of water to the shop where you sell your babies, hopefully they could do you a test.
I drop the temp. slowly over the next few days to about 77f, I'd be changing 20% -25% daily.

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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 27 May 2012, 21:55

Pterophyllum wrote:Take a jam jar of water to the shop where you sell your babies, hopefully they could do you a test.

Good thinking Rob. I'll give the shop a ring tomorrow to see if they do it.



I drop the temp. slowly over the next few days to about 77f, I'd be changing 20% -25% daily.

Okay, I'll do as you recommend.
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Wed 30 May 2012, 07:16

Sorry Rob, didn't get around to checking the GH and KH, but after taking your and Sam's advice the panting has stopped. I lifted the spraybar above the water and did daily 20% water changes. I will continue with the daily water changes for a few days and see how it goes. I will check my Ph again today
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Re: Angels "Panting"

Post  endlessendlers on Wed 30 May 2012, 07:43

Just checked Ph and it's risen to 6.8.
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Re: Angels "Panting"

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