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THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

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THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Fri 04 May 2012, 00:55

Just wanted to share my short video of 5 day old freeswimmers:

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif4
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Pterophyllum on Fri 04 May 2012, 08:46

Tried looking at this when you posted it on TAFII and for some reason my computer won't play it.

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Fri 04 May 2012, 12:33

Pterophyllum wrote:Tried looking at this when you posted it on TAFII and for some reason my computer won't play it.

How odd. Even my mobile will play it.

Try this:

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif4
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Pterophyllum on Fri 04 May 2012, 14:12

They both work on my work lap top, it's my home computer that won't play it.
They're doing a good job, and there are a lot more than 11 this time!

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Ghipsi on Fri 04 May 2012, 14:21

WOW, I say again WOW!!!
They are stunning, lovely full bellies on the fry and the parents, well there is no doubt as to what they are STUNNING, Dad is a SPECTACULAR Smokey pinoy Paraiba!
Well done Helen Very Happy
Lisa

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Fri 04 May 2012, 21:04

Ghipsi wrote:WOW, I say again WOW!!!
They are stunning, lovely full bellies on the fry and the parents, well there is no doubt as to what they are STUNNING, Dad is a SPECTACULAR Smokey pinoy Paraiba!
Well done Helen Very Happy
Lisa

Oops Lisa. Mum is John's smokey pinoy paraiba, dad is the blue silver. lol! Their first batch is about 16 weeks old, but the blue smokey ghosts and the blue ghosts aren't particularly blue yet, but with these parents they couldn't possibly be het pb, could they?
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Ghipsi on Fri 04 May 2012, 23:51

Opps, sorry to mum Embarassed
No doubt in my mind!!!!

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Sat 05 May 2012, 00:50

They just seem to be taking forever to become blue. Crying or Very sad
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Ghipsi on Sat 05 May 2012, 13:42

endlessendlers wrote:They just seem to be taking forever to become blue. Crying or Very sad

Lets see a video of them Very Happy

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Sat 05 May 2012, 14:24

I'll see what I can do.
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Sat 05 May 2012, 15:20

Not the best video as it was taken with my phone. The tank contains silver ghosts het pb, your blue koi paraiba (who is developing into a real beauty btw), pinoy ghosts, smokey pinoy ghosts and the (blue) smokey ghosts. The latter three phenotype being from the blue silver/smokey pinoy paraiba pairing. The bright green you sometimes see in the video on the front of the (blue) smokey ghosts Is a reflection from the plant leaves.

Your comments are welcome.

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif4
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Ghipsi on Sun 06 May 2012, 05:48

Ok, typical of Johns breeding Very Happy Smile Surprised , saw some blues in there but I see that Johns genes are taking the lead here & they can grow to a good size before you can raely see the blue properly.
Lisa

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 06 May 2012, 06:34

Thanks Lisa. When you say " saw some blues in there", can you be a bit more specific please? There's no doubt, the pinoys are pinoys, its the darned (biue) smokies.
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 06 May 2012, 08:29

Once again the video won't work on my home computer, I'll have to try to look at it on my lap top, when I get a chance!

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Sun 06 May 2012, 08:44

Pterophyllum wrote:Once again the video won't work on my home computer, I'll have to try to look at it on my lap top, when I get a chance!

Thanks Rob. Your comments are very welcome.
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Pterophyllum on Sun 06 May 2012, 23:27

OK, I'm perplexed, very perplexed.

If I was shown your second video, knowing nothing about the parents, I would not have picked up on the philippine blue gene. Indeed I would have been pretty confident that they weren't blues.

On the other hand, If I'd only seen the first video then I'd have been equally confident that both parents were homozygous for pb!

Clearly one of these two views must be wrong!

Photographs can be misleading, videos particularily so, and those taken with a mobile phone more than most!
Lighting also can make a huge difference to the way fish appear, and all of this seems to be particularily true for paraibas!

Now Lisa has considerable experience with John's fish, where I have never, knowingly, set eyes on one.
On the other hand all the paraibas I've seen are either fish bred by Ken Kennedy, or have at least 1 grandparent bred by him, where Lisa has, to my knowledge, never seen one of his fish!

So what interests me is this comment
well there is no doubt as to what they are STUNNING, Dad is a SPECTACULAR Smokey pinoy Paraiba!

Now to be honest, I have never seen a pinoy paraiba in the flesh, but my initial reaction on seeing that video was that the irridescent blue patches were a very different shade from any of the paraibas I have. I put this down to the fish being a pinoy paraiba, or an effect of the lighting/camera; now I'm not so sure.

So moving on to the second video
Lisa says ....
Ok, typical of Johns breeding , saw some blues in there but I see that Johns genes are taking the lead here
Where I'm struggling to see any blue at all!

So there are a few possibilities.....

1. There's no mystery, we are simply dealing with the problems of lighting and taking an accurate photo that truely reflects what we see.
2.Johns fish are homozygous for pb, but carry a gene or genes which affect when and how pb is expressed.
3. Johns fish have a different form of the pb gene which affects when and how pb is expressed.
4. John's fish don't have pb at all, but a different gene which has similar effects!

I'm hoping to visit Lisa soon, and when I do, I'll get to see some of John's fish in the flesh, I hope that this will give me an insight into just how similar/dissimilar his fish are to the fish I've been working with.

The philippine blue gene is found at a specific locus (a specific position on a specific chromosome), it is well documented that on occation, genes can become "translocated" to a different locus, I'm beginning to suspect that this may have happened with the philippine blue gene. If this is the case, and John has been working fish with the gene at one locus and Ken has been working with the gene at a different locus, then there are exciting times ahead!

If this is the case then it may be that Helen has crossed a philippine blue with a "manchester blue"....

pb/pb - +/+ x +/+ - mb/mb
the resulting offspring would be +/pb - +/mb and would appear to be normal non-blue fish, but crossing back to either parent would produce 50% blue fish either pb/pb if crossed back to a phillipine fish, or mb/mb if crossed back to one of John's. What's exciting is that a sibling x sibling cross would produce 6.25% that were "double blue" being homozygous for both pb and mb.

This is highly speculative, but if it is the case, highly exciting too! I have to caution that this is probably not the most likely explanation, but it is well worth further, careful research!

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Mon 07 May 2012, 08:41

Rob, how do you multi-quote? Then I can reply to your post.
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Pterophyllum on Mon 07 May 2012, 12:39

how do you multi-quote?
Cut & paste the bit you want to quote, highlight it by left clicking and dragging the mouse, then click on the icon which looks like two speach bubbles

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Mon 07 May 2012, 13:13

Pterophyllum wrote:OK, I'm perplexed, very perplexed.

If I was shown your second video, knowing nothing about the parents, I would not have picked up on the philippine blue gene. Indeed I would have been pretty confident that they weren't blues.

On the other hand, If I'd only seen the first video then I'd have been equally confident that both parents were homozygous for pb!

Clearly one of these two views must be wrong!


I'm sure mum is a smokey pinoy paraiba and no doubt dad is a blue silver. Mum has the spangles in the tail and dorsal indicative of a paraiba.


Photographs can be misleading, videos particularily so, and those taken with a mobile phone more than most!
Lighting also can make a huge difference to the way fish appear, and all of this seems to be particularily true for paraibas!

Now Lisa has considerable experience with John's fish, where I have never, knowingly, set eyes on one.
On the other hand all the paraibas I've seen are either fish bred by Ken Kennedy, or have at least 1 grandparent bred by him, where Lisa has, to my knowledge, never seen one of his fish!

So what interests me is this comment
well there is no doubt as to what they are STUNNING, Dad is a SPECTACULAR Smokey pinoy Paraiba!

Now to be honest, I have never seen a pinoy paraiba in the flesh, but my initial reaction on seeing that video was that the irridescent blue patches were a very different shade from any of the paraibas I have. I put this down to the fish being a pinoy paraiba, or an effect of the lighting/camera; now I'm not so sure.

Yes, the video shows the true colour of her blue. It's an electric blue as opposed to the usual aquamarine.



So moving on to the second video
Lisa says ....
Ok, typical of Johns breeding , saw some blues in there but I see that Johns genes are taking the lead here
Where I'm struggling to see any blue at all!

So there are a few possibilities.....

1. There's no mystery, we are simply dealing with the problems of lighting and taking an accurate photo that truely reflects what we see.
2.Johns fish are homozygous for pb, but carry a gene or genes which affect when and how pb is expressed.
3. Johns fish have a different form of the pb gene which affects when and how pb is expressed.
4. John's fish don't have pb at all, but a different gene which has similar effects!

Tank lightning is only 50 watts in a 3ft tank and my camera phone isn't working properly. To the naked eye, the (blue) smokies have light blue and green irridescence from the crown to the base of the caudal and pale blue on the lighter areas of the body.



I'm hoping to visit Lisa soon, and when I do, I'll get to see some of John's fish in the flesh, I hope that this will give me an insight into just how similar/dissimilar his fish are to the fish I've been working with.

I hope this will help you understand how John's fish express.



The philippine blue gene is found at a specific locus (a specific position on a specific chromosome), it is well documented that on occation, genes can become "translocated" to a different locus, I'm beginning to suspect that this may have happened with the philippine blue gene. If this is the case, and John has been working fish with the gene at one locus and Ken has been working with the gene at a different locus, then there are exciting times ahead!

If this is the case then it may be that Helen has crossed a philippine blue with a "manchester blue"....

pb/pb - +/+ x +/+ - mb/mb
the resulting offspring would be +/pb - +/mb and would appear to be normal non-blue fish, but crossing back to either parent would produce 50% blue fish either pb/pb if crossed back to a phillipine fish, or mb/mb if crossed back to one of John's. What's exciting is that a sibling x sibling cross would produce 6.25% that were "double blue" being homozygous for both pb and mb.

I'm thinking of keeping a couple of pinoys from this pair and will either do a sibling to sibling cross or cross back to one of the parents. Watch this space. Lol



This is highly speculative, but if it is the case, highly exciting too! I have to caution that this is probably not the most likely explanation, but it is well worth further, careful research!

Yes it is very exciting, but we'll just have to be patient.

I don't think this quote thing works on my mobile. Sorry, o hope you can follow this post.
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Ghipsi on Mon 07 May 2012, 14:49

Soz, can't make any decent posts yet as my brain is still scrambled from a very long & fantastic day yesterday at the BCA convention, but.... some fantastic stuff here Very Happy
Lisa

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Mon 07 May 2012, 18:08

Ghipsi wrote:Soz, can't make any decent posts yet as my brain is still scrambled from a very long & fantastic day yesterday at the BCA convention, but.... some fantastic stuff here Very Happy
Lisa

I wondered why you hadn't posted about the convention, now I know why. Lol

I'm sitting here waiting eagerly for your reply about which of the fish in my video are pb/pb and also Rob's post. Gee I must have a boring life if this is all I have to look forward to on a rainy Bank Holiday. lol!
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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  Ghipsi on Thu 10 May 2012, 16:41

Just had a good look through the video, the indicaters are the gry blue over the top of the head & blue tinges to the gills, try looking at them under a different light. The cross I made between one of Daves Wild cross singapore blues & a wharmbys Titanium Blue (I'm sure if you ask John he will tell you how your Female is related) the youngsters all looked non pb for some time, Now I can tell the difference as they have got older.
The new batch of youngsters from my wharmby Pinoy & Daves wild X Blue are following a similar track, and not showing any 'Headlights' Just a grey blue colour on some.
Lisa

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Re: THIRD SPAWN - FREESWIMMER VIDEO

Post  endlessendlers on Sat 12 May 2012, 01:02

Ghipsi wrote:Just had a good look through the video, the indicaters are the gry blue over the top of the head & blue tinges to the gills, try looking at them under a different light. The cross I made between one of Daves Wild cross singapore blues & a wharmbys Titanium Blue (I'm sure if you ask John he will tell you how your Female is related) the youngsters all looked non pb for some time, Now I can tell the difference as they have got older.
The new batch of youngsters from my wharmby Pinoy & Daves wild X Blue are following a similar track, and not showing any 'Headlights' Just a grey blue colour on some.
Lisa

Thanks Lisa. The blue smokies are developing more blue, but they are about 18 weeks old. It's about time too.
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VIDEO UPDATE

Post  endlessendlers on Mon 21 May 2012, 06:48

The fry are now 3 week freeswimming so I thought I'd post a video. As there are 300 in a small tank as opposed to my usual 60 survivors, I've noticed they are slower growing. They do have a good appetite though. I tried them with crushed flake yesterday and they took it immediately.

Anyway here's the video:

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif4
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